The Biography Show #003 - Helen Of Troy
Hello and welcome back! Apologies for the long delay in shows - especially on a show we’re so many of you have been generous enough to show us your support with a financial donation! We’re going to make it up to you over the coming weeks. For those of you that don’t listen to the Napoleon show, I explain the reasons for our long delay at the beginning of this show. It includes TPN’s servers getting attacked by a trojan virus.
Speaking of a trojan… for this show we wanted to talk about a woman from ancient history. Many of you suggested HELEN OF TROY. But is she history? Or mythology?
On this show we talk about whether or not Helen is historical or mythological. We talk about The Iliad, Homer, The Trojan Wars, The Trojan Horse, Achilles, Menelaus, Agamemnon, Odysseus - welcome to the dawn of the HEROIC AGE - 800 BCE.
(photo credit: http://www.flickr.com/photos/majorbonnet/)
Did I mention Achilles? It turns out, we have AN ACTUAL PHOTO OF ACHILLES SCALING THE WALLS OF TROY —–>
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If you enjoyed this podcast, you might also like the our other podcast Napoleon 101.
The theme music for this show is:
Black Violin
“Brandenburg” (mp3)
from “Black Violin”
(Di Versatile, Inc)
Buy at iTunes Music Store
More On This Album
May 2nd, 2008 at 9:46 pm
Glad to see that no nefarious forces can defeat the dynamic duo of historical podcasting!
I enjoyed the show as always. Anyone interested in Helen or the Trojan War in general should check out the comic “Age of Bronze”. It is a heavily researched version of what may have really happened. The characters believe in the gods, but there is no divine intervention. There are adult themes including homosexuality, so it is not one for the kiddies!
http://age-of-bronze.com/aob/index.shtml is the website. It has a good overview of the story so far and even a pronounciation guide for Cameron!
May 4th, 2008 at 11:24 am
Hi Guys
I loved the show, as always, but this one was not your best one because all the tangents that you guys went off on made it a bit difficult to focus and follow the actual topic.
I totally respect your guys’ right to your opinion, but I believe that the questioning of Jesus, for me, was a bit offensive. Cameron, I don’t believe you are adding anything to the show by voicing your opinions about the “myth that is Jesus”. I respect your right to believe in anything you want, I would hope you respect my right as well. I love this show and the Napoleon show and I don’t care when you guys’ question Prez. Bush and Iraq and all the evil that is America, but I take offense when you question my religion and belief. I find your shows way more enjoyable when you stick to the topic.
I still love the shows and eagerly await the next episodes of this show and Napoleon 101.
May 5th, 2008 at 9:13 pm
Wes
What if it is my belief that President Bush is a kick arse President? Or that Iraq was a great idea or that America is the best country in the world?
Once you start saying what can and can’t be said, you miss the point of free speech.
Good to see TPN is working properly again!
May 5th, 2008 at 10:03 pm
Wes, I respect your right to believe whatever you want as well! But that doesn’t mean I can promise not to call Christianity out as being as much of a myth as the Iliad. I’m sorry if it offends you but Christianity isn’t off bounds as a topic of discussion. It’s just a fact that there is as little evidence for Jesus as there is for Helen of Troy and, as we were talking in the show about the difference between mythology and history, I think my comments were quite relevant. I’ll see if I can convince David to do a show about Jesus and then I cant explain why it’s mythology AND be on topic. :-)
May 9th, 2008 at 8:18 pm
Hi Guys,
Some quick feedback.
Firstly let me say I’m a huge fan of your work and love the Napoleon series, and what you’re trying to build with the Biography Show. The last episode (Helen of Troy) was (IMHO) not to the standards to which we have become accustomed, and I say that with the utmost respect. Why? Well I’ve tried to think about why the show left me unsatisfied (please take this as no more than my personal constructive feedback ;o) )
1) The debate about myth versus reality is interesting, but was time consuming, taking away from the main subject (i.e. Helen of Troy …. or should that be “HoT” …;o)). I think you need to set out what type of people you will or will not cover at the outset, and simply stick to it without the detour discussion. Your conversational style is one of the strengths of your work, but it should be on the main subject.
2) The subject, HoT, was not discussed much. Mythical versus historical was discussed, the Trojan war was discussed, but very little on her specifically. If its “The Biography Show”, a biography it should be. Focus would make the show stronger.
3) As I said in a post on a prior show regarding women in history, the unfortunate truth is that they were rarelly the change agents in historical events, perhaps the excuse (as in this case), or a partner of a decision maker, but rarely the true “driver” (like Joan of Arc, or Elizabeth I). So you need to pick them carefully. Again, perhaps define the criteria by which the potential subject is chosen.
4) I realise the ancient world has far less information available, but my sense was that there either wasn’t enough info on HoT, or it hadn’t been researched thoroughly enough this time. Again before you pick a subject make sure there’s enough “meat” of the show.
5) Personal gripe … what’s with the BCE thing instead of BC? Cameron, I know you’re an outspoken atheist (personally I’m an “agonsitic leaning to atheist”), but I think this BCE thing is political correctness gone mad. If the logic holds true you shouldn’t swear using the “Lord’s name in vain” because you don’t believe in him (BTW “bloody” comes from “by our lady” so you shouldn’t use it either). While we’re at it we can rename all the months and days of the week because of their religious origins. (Sorry … rant over).
Anyway enough mumbling on and on.
Best wishes, and as I say please take all this as personal opinion and constructive criticism to help improve the show.
Rudy
Belgium
May 9th, 2008 at 9:12 pm
David, Cameron,
Thanks for the very interesting podcast on Helena of Troy.
Keep up the good work!
I am looking to acquire a copy Homer’s illiad. Which translation would you recommend? - The Alexander Pope, Samuel Butler or a more recent translation.
Best regards
Donald from Montreal, Québec
May 11th, 2008 at 5:36 am
Getlemen,
Good show. While I agree with Cameron’s views concerning Christianity, there are other additional extant citations of the historical existence of Jesus–as a radical preacher in first century Judea. The historian Josephus names this preacher in his histories and Jesus in derogatory terms is also mentioned in one of the Talmudic writings. Jesus may have been a hitorical character, but the Christ is a myth. The argument that this human preacher, who was executed for political crimes against the Roman state is the son of God is a social myth designed to restructure the political and social cohesiveness of the Roman state in Late Antiquity.
Helen may be a metaphor for the social role of women in the Mycenean period–a stand in for wome as a cause of war in large numbers. Women were basic resources whose scarcity dictated competion in the form of war. Helen is also a Jungian archtype set up by Homer–another doubtful historical personage–to warn of the danger of uncontrolled female sexual power. The opposing archtype is the faithful Penelope, whom Homer sets up as the model for society as it emerged out of the late Dark Ages into the Archaic period. The importance of Helen and the other Homeric archtypes is no less than that of Jesus, given the enormous influence of the Iliad to the development of Western Civilization. Helen, in this light, has been as important as the mythological Christ.
By the way, I am not an atheist or an agnostic, just a simple Spinozan pantheist.
May 11th, 2008 at 8:14 am
Rudy, BCE is not political correctness, it’s an acknowledgement there is more to world history than Christianity.
This Buddhist appreciates that.
May 11th, 2008 at 5:21 pm
Hi Boadicea,
I understand your point of view, but my point is that we’re not going to rename Thursday (named after Thor) because there’s more to world history than Norse mtythology, are we?
Also, if we have a problem with using the (supposed) birth date of Jesus as a point for measuring history, then we should get get rid of it altogether not simply relabel it because of the sensibilities of followers of other religions. Relabelling the same date does smack of a political correctness to me. Pick another moment in history if you’re serious is what I’m trying to say, e.g. end of the Roman Empire (although that will then be criticised as Western-centric no doubt).
…maybe I’m just getting old and grumpy … ;0)
May 12th, 2008 at 11:23 am
Rudy, sorry to hear you didn’t like the show as much as usual. David actually tried to talk me out of doing the show for many of the same reasons you gave but I talked him into it because I thought that the discussion of fact versus myth was interesting. Looks like I was wrong! We’ve discussed it and we’ll stick to REAL people in future.
May 12th, 2008 at 11:24 am
oh and BCE thing? Well that’s they way most modern historian refer to it, so I’m just being consistent.
May 12th, 2008 at 5:46 pm
Cameron,
Ok thanks for getting back … I guess I could sense the disconnect in the episode. The repartie between you and David is one of the strengths of your shows, and if you aren’t aligned the person listening might be able to feel it. But hell, I’m just giving my thoughts, the vast majority of people listening might be very happy with the end product.
Only REAL people, eh, … so no Jesus episode then ;o)
On the BCE thing I guess I’m just an “old” historian … :D)
Anyway, keep up the good work!
May 13th, 2008 at 9:12 am
Rudy, if you want to undertake a wholesale revision of the calendar, you might want to see about getting yourself elected Pope. It’s an imperfect platform, as the Church is no longer the monolithic influence it once was (which is the point of referring to the BCE, of course.)
I suggest Oneday, Twoday, Thriceday, etc.
Of course, why should we give in to the politically correct tyranny of a 7-day week anyway?
Otherwise, I suggest you keep your straw for a more fruitful purpose. I surely have better things to do.
May 14th, 2008 at 6:37 am
Jose, I believe that most historians consider the ‘Testimonium Flavianium’ of Josephus to be a forgery, a later insertion by Christian authorities (see: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Josephus_on_Jesus). However, even if he did write it, he most certainly was not a first-hand witness of the events, being born in 37 CE. He was also not a “historian”, in the sense that we have today. For example, his “Antiquities Of The Jews”, in which the ‘Testimonium Flavianium’appears, also talks about Adam and Eve as if they were ‘history’. So in terms of being a reliable source, he can be pretty solidly discounted.
May 14th, 2008 at 6:42 am
Donald, regarding translations of The Iliad - I’ve got the Robert Fagles translation from 1990 and I believe there’s a new translation from 2007 by Rodney Merrill. I tend to like getting the most modern translations in the hope that they are a more accurate.
May 16th, 2008 at 5:11 am
Hi Boadicea,
The sarcasm was not needed.
I don’t want to undertake a wholesale anything, I just mentioned that changing labels smacks of superficial political correctness … a malaise of the age.
Anyway, no offence intended.